We’re wrapping up the transcript of our 4-part interview series with Mark Laita about his project Soft White Underbelly, an interview series that shines light on subjects and subject matter often passed over by society.
**SUBJECT MATTER IN THIS INTERVIEW MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR ALL READERS. DISCRETION IS ADVISED. **
In part 3, Mark Laita talks with Workbook Radio Producer Jacqueline Lopez about the evolution of his project’s success Soft White Underbelly on YouTube and what makes a platform like Patreon so appealing.
JL: What’s heartbreaking about [the YouTube community] is people are so quick to hide behind a username and can spit vitriol.
ML: Oh, it’s evil that you can just make up a name; it can be a female name if you’re a guy, or vice versa. You can make up any name you want. And you can do anything and say anything you want with no repercussions.
JL: Does it weigh on you when those comments come through and everything? [Do] you feel like you have to defend [your interview subjects]?
ML: Well, I mean, I could start defending them, but I saw very [quickly], when my channel went from 2,000 to 400,000 [subscribers] like that, I saw that: oh my god, this is taking hours out of my day to reply to this comment and that comment, to defend myself. And it’s like, I need to just not look at the comments because it’s a waste of my energy. So I don’t get too involved in the comments any longer on YouTube.
Hopefully, I’ll be able to on Patreon. I think that will be a much different crowd making comments. Because there are some people who have made comments on my [YouTube] channel that are just lovely to interact with. And if I could have a bunch more of those, I’d love it! But along with those you get these people that just spew out hate. All the time. It’s awful.
In terms of, like, helping these people… I think what I’m doing is helping in different ways. Certainly you can look at what I’m doing as exploitive. You know, “I’m exploiting these people.” But every single person, and I’ve talked to well over 1,000 people, every single one has asked, “Can I come back?” Everybody wants to come back. Even Glow, the woman whose video I put up this morning, and it’s the most traumatic thing ever. I even had to put a warning at the beginning because it’s just so, like, horrifying. Horrific, her story. And she’s certainly affected by it, heavily. I talked to her yesterday and she said, “You know if you want me to come back again, I’ll do it.” (laughing) And I’m like, “okay!”
So I even got a therapist saying, “what you’re doing is really dangerous and risky and [somebody’s] going to commit suicide because of what you’re doing.” Well, I mean, my record is zero for 1,000. You know, not a single person has committed suicide. They all have come back and said, “Can I come back? I’d love to do it again.” I’m not saying that won’t happen. I mean eventually you get someone who’s committed suicide. But I think the benefit for people viewing this, that might be considering… whatever. Using drugs, joining a gang, being there for their kids, splitting up and getting a divorce. All these things. I’ve had lots of comments where people said, “You know, I decided to stick together [with my partner]…and make this work because of your videos.”
And I’ve had three, now four, because Christie, this heroin addict that’s on my channel. It’s one of the earlier talks I’ve had. She came to me this week and… for a while she came to me screaming just, “I need you to take that video down. Take that video down!” She’s making all these claims that were untrue: that I altered [the interview] or changed it. I didn’t do anything. I just filmed it and put it up. She just wanted me to take it down. It was embarrassing. It was humiliating. I think she finally saw it, and she couldn’t deal with it. And I refused to. I’m sorry. It’s too powerful a message to people that… she signed the model release saying I could do everything and anything with it. I could put [it] on a billboard in Times Square with the model release I have everyone sign. And she’s come back to talk to me, like, four times. She did it, then did it again, did it again, then did it a fourth time and then finally she saw the video and then said no, no, no, you can’t do this. She was going to hire a lawyer to sue me and all that stuff.
So that’s where we left it. I ignored her. Never heard from any lawyer. And then this week she shows up and she’s looking really good, well dressed and she’s like groomed a little bit. Looked really great. And I said, “What’s going on?” And she said, “I just want to apologize.” And I said, “Tell me what’s going on.” And so she showed the video to her 10-year-old daughter, who stays with the father, and I guess she’s watched the video many times. And she said it helped her daughter understand…
And you can see she’s making improvements. And it’s very powerful. Not that she’s healed. She still uses and she’s still working the streets as a prostitute. But she’s out of her tent. She’s staying with people that have like a roof over their head. Small steps. You don’t heal these people right away, and I don’t even know that you can heal some of these people. Some of them are just so far gone and not going to do the hard work to face what they’ve done to themselves and they’ve done to their friends and family and stuff like that. So, it’s a lot of courage, a lot of work that’s going to be required on their part. I get these comments: “Oh we gotta help this person! Let’s help this drug addict.” I don’t know that you can help them. It’d be wasted money to throw 20,000 dollars at this person because they’d use it on drugs, and I don’t want that on my channel. I don’t want a part of that.
So, I think the way that I’m helping most, in terms of this work, is helping just create awareness of what these problems are. And how they have grown and how we choose to not look at them and how they just continue, and they’ll get worse if we don’t do anything about it.
JL: Yeah, I think that there must be something in you that does feel like eyes on these [videos] is hitting the goal of trying to show this soft white underbelly of society, for better or worse.
ML: Yeah. I know that what I’m doing is the right thing to do, and these people are taking the hit in some ways. I’ve had a bunch of South Central prostitutes who I’ve been talking with lately. And I put their videos up. I put one up on Sunday and one on Monday this week. And because my channel is now so popular it wasn’t like the old days where I could put a video up of a pimp or a prostitute and they got, like, a few 1,000 views and that was the end of the story, all good! Now it’s like they get close to 1 million views the first day. And [the ladies] call me at the end of the day and say, “You’ve got to take this down. Take it down! I’m going to lose visitation rights.” Or something like that. And I’m like, “Oh shit.” So I took [the videos] down.
I think the Patreon version of my channel will allow me to do that kind of work again. Because there are a bunch of other people I’ve talked to that I would love to put up and now that I have, you know, videos with 2.3 million views? That [interview subject] is going to end up in jail. Or something bad is going happen. There’ll be death threats. There’ll be something; something bad will happen if I use YouTube for this. I’m exposing these people way too much. They’re underworld characters, and they’re not meant to be seen by millions and millions of people. Whereas on Patreon I can do it; it’ll stay under the radar, and I’ll be able to do what I want to do. And I’ll still have the YouTube channel. I’ll still do interesting content there. But the stuff that really pushes the limits of what’s possible, I don’t think I can do on YouTube anymore.
My YouTube channel will be like an introductory version and if you want to get…if you can bite off more than this, then pay ten dollars a month.
JL: That’s it. Essentially it is that aspect of protection. I think what’s really fascinating is you speaking about this, it’s just so refreshing, if I’m being honest. And I think it’s because you’re thinking is now it’s gotten dangerous because at all these views. You have this younger generation that is just like, I need all the views I can [get]. I need. I need. I need.
ML: No, I want less views.
JL: Exactly! For you, it’s like: no, I understand that it is endangering when it gets to a certain threshold. You’re more about community. You’re more about the greater good as opposed to the self. I think that’s such a testament to why you did this project in the first place.
ML: Well, I’ll get all these comments. The most typical one is: “You’re exploiting these people just for YouTube views.” Look. The content is so dark. If you go to monetization on YouTube, the first thing they tell you is if your content contains sexual…you name it! The whole list. There’s a list of like twelve things, ten things that you can’t do if you’re looking to monetize, and I do every one of them. My channel has every single one of those! So there’s no way I could ever monetize my YouTube channel.
But, I could really use an editor. Because I’m doing this all myself, and I get a lot of comments like, “Oh, tell your team to do this.” (laughing)
JL: You look in the mirror.
ML: What…what team? They think I’m a team? I mean, maybe I look like I’m a big operation, but I’m just a dude with a camera. And I’m worried about getting robbed, and I’m worried about the noise outside my studio, which is right in the heart of all the action. It’s very noisy out there. I’m trying to get good audio. I’m trying to make it look visually appealing even though I kind of really didn’t care about that initially because I didn’t want it to look slick. But I see now it’s just…I want it to be visually appealing. So my videos look better now then they did when I started [earlier on]. But YouTube has become a monster. For what I do? It’s impossible for me to do what I want to do the way I want to do it with millions of views.
In this extended and final Part 4, Mark Laita reflects on how this project has revitalized his photography and offers advice for other artists pursing personal work.
JL: This being a passion project of yours and getting that vitriol and everything, it can weight you down. What sees you through those moments where you feel that [backlash]?
ML: Well I think anytime you’re doing anything…noble. Is that the word? You’re going to get criticism. You know, no matter what you end up doing, especially with this much exposure, somebody’s going to see you as exploitive; someone’s going to see you as mean; somebody’s gonna see you as…-it runs the gamut. Everything you can imagine. And I get lots of people saying, “Oh my god, what you’re doing is so great.” And the majority are that. They support what I’m doing. They think that what I’m doing is helpful and positive. But I’ve heard it all. I’ve heard it all. But you have to have a thick skin.
JL: Is there something else that’s going to go beyond Soft White Underbelly?
ML: No, no. Like I said, I don’t see it changing too much or adapting. The only thing I would love to change is it’s way too heavily weighted now on Skid Row and drug addiction, and that’s not my intention. It’s just that if I go down there today I’m going to find someone really great to talk to. It’s like, why not just do that again tomorrow? Rather than hop on a plane and go to Arkansas and all that. You know, it’s a lot more leg work, a lot more effort, a lot more money, a lot more everything. And you know if I do the Patreon version and that gets enough subscribers without becoming another YouTube, then I’ll be able to hire editors; I’ll be able to hire and assistant; I’ll be able to hire someone to handle donations and make sure the money gets put in the right ways for these people. Right now, it’s all on me. And it’s too much for one person. I can barely find time to edit.
And I’ve had so many requests [since] my channel took off from the parents of some of these people that I’ve interviewed that just discovered them. Somebody saw the video and said, “That’s your son Paul!” So Paul’s mom is now calling me. “Can you find my son? You’ve talked to him.” “Yeah, I’ve seen Paul several times. I’ll try to find him.” I’ve looked for him all this week, but I didn’t find him. And there have been five people like that. Where the families, the parents…They sent me a cellphone, so I can give it to him if I find him again so that he can call them. All these people are just lost. They’re not in contact with their families, and they have no idea. They didn’t even know he was alive. Some of these people might’ve thought he was dead.
JL: Did you ever think that you would be shifted in this way from listening to these stories? Did you expect some semblance of it transforming you?
ML: Oh I don’t know. I mean, I’m always up for transforming. (laughing) I think that’s just…Like, I see some people that just don’t want to look at things; they don’t want to grow; they don’t want to increase their capacity for compassion or empathy; they’re just closed. And that’s just sad. But I’m the opposite of that. I’ve also got some screws loose though, for even taking on this project. My family just thinks I’m nuts. Of all my friends, like maybe one or two of them watch my channel.
JL: Really?
ML: Yeah. Nobody can handle it. It’s really dark. But certainly there’s an audience for it, and a lot of people are watching it. So… It’s not for everybody, though. A lot of people just can’t deal.
JL: No, absolutely. And I think to further your point, I think even hearing your brief behind the scenes and the fact that for every one interview that goes up, you’re interviewing six or seven people.
ML: Yeah. I’ve been robbed four times. I had a gun to my face three weeks ago. Got robbed again. It’s horrible down there. It’s the most dangerous [place]. And I’m a 6’4″ male; I can take care of myself. But even still. Like I get these people that say, “Oh I wanna do what you’re doing!” It’s a female in Vancouver. I’m like, all I can tell you is beware of how dangerous this can be. Make sure you have an assistant who’s a slash-bodyguard or something. Cause people will take advantage of you. These people will.
JL: You’re still working in the industry.
ML: Yeah.
JL: Do art directors or people you work with creatively, does anybody ever talk about the projects?
ML: No. I don’t bring it up. It’s too disturbing.
JL: But they don’t even see it.
ML: Oh, I don’t know what a person’s capacity is for this kind of content.
JL: I’m just curious if they come up to you by the craft services and are like, “Hey man, I saw that…”
ML: Oh, yeah. I’ve had a lot of that. Especially in the last two weeks because I did an intro video where you see me. You know I had to explain what I’m doing because a lot of people were saying, they’re thinking it’s a Skid Row channel, or it’s an addiction channel. Which there are some of those on YouTube. Even though it looks like that, and a lot of people are…like I’ll do a video interview with somebody who has nothing to do with Skid Row and never been to Skid Row. But everyone’s assuming: this person lives on Skid Row. No, no, no. And that’s my fault, for doing so much Skid Row work. But that will change this year.
JL: Do you have any words of advice for people, not who go through something like this specifically, but passion projects of this nature? Do you have any words of inspiration?
ML: Yeah. I think…Figure out what you really love. Richard Branson, I heard him say something like this once. He said (Virgin Airlines guy), “Write down on a piece of paper all the things you’re good at. Then write down another list of all the things you’re bad at. Then write down what you like and what you don’t like. And that’ll tell you what to do.”
I heard that after I’d already started this. But if I created that list it would’ve [fit]. Because I love psychology; I love characters; I love people. I love these interesting underworld stories that are just like, whoa. Like, who knew that a pimp thought that way? You know, that kind of stuff. Or, Jesus, this prostitute. You just want to think, oh she’s just whatever. But you hear her story, you figure out: oh, that’s you ended up here. Your mom was this, your dad was in jail. It’s like, of course, you had no other option. You had no other choice. So I’m interested in all those stories. I’m interested in the characters.
Because, you know, sometimes this work is: you know, we’re saving the country, we’re saving the world. It’s like, if we’re all more aware of what’s really going on in the world, we’ll make the country better. Or something like that. On one level maybe that’s what I’m doing. But on another level, sometimes it’s just more personal. It’s like, we all struggle with something. It’s the nature of being human. Whether you’re struggling with an eating disorder or you pick the wrong partners romantically and you end up in these bad relationships. Or your career, you set the goals too low, and you just didn’t believe in yourself enough. Or, you have an alcohol problem, or drugs, or gambling, or…There are a million different forms this takes. But it’s all self-worth at its core. So you look at a heroin addict and see that she’s on the street, living like a rat and having sex with strangers for money, which is dangerous as can be. It’s like, how does that apply to me?
But if you really break it down and see what the mechanics are of it? You see, oh, that childhood that she had, which is maybe a much more extreme version of what I had, the mechanics are the same. The way it all affects you as an adult and affects your thinking and your behavior is the same. It’s just maybe your problems are not as extreme. But these are more interesting, more exciting stories of the same thing that we all go through. So on another level, it’s that. It’s more personal.
And then, it can also be (if you can’t handle any of that) it’s just an interesting character study. For an actor, almost. Or you just want to see some interesting stories. Sometimes I just watch it and it’s like, let’s just watch this guy and see what he’s all about. We’re not solving anything, we’re not curing anything. We’re just going to be entertained. And sometimes it works for [that kind of viewer]. On that level. It depends on what [the viewer] can bite off. What you’re able to bite off that day. So it works on different levels, I think.
So back to your question about what advice I would give to somebody doing something they love: I gave you that Richard Branson advice. But if you find something you love to do, that’s the most important part. Because you’re not going to have what it takes to push forward and persevere if you’re not doing something that you would do for zero money. You have to be doing something you would do for free. Like this project. I never thought I’d make any- I haven’t made a dime off of it. I’ve lost hundreds of thousands [of dollars] probably. I have so many followers maybe I can monetize it through Patreon or something. I’ll end up spending that money on editing and stuff like that. It won’t end up in my bank account. It’ll end up [funding] the project. Whatever the case, it’ll make life easier.
The key, I think, is to find something you love to do and you would do no matter what…I would wake up at 3 in the morning sometimes, and I’ll just want to start editing. Or I’ll go down [to Skid Row] at 3:00 in the morning and find all these crazy characters. Because at 3:00 in the morning it’s a very different person on Skid Row than it is at 3:00 in the afternoon.
So having that drive to just work on what you’re doing because you love it is number one. That’s everything. And then, if that’s in place, then you just keep doing it, and the more you think about it, the more passion you have for it, the more work you put in, the more you just do it no matter what. That’s what it takes to thrive and turn it into something really successful. It’s simple. A lot of people just don’t love anything. And that’s a huge problem because…Like, there are a lot of things in the world I love. And this project kind of encompasses a lot of them all in one. So it works for me. But, I’ve known other people where it’s like, I’m not really that into that. And they find excuses why they’re not going to pursue “that” and they find excuses why they won’t pursue “this.” And it’s like, so what are you going to do?
JL: Did [this project] inject any love back into your photography? Because I know when we started this interview you said, “What do I have to show [for my career]?
ML: Oh yeah. I really kind of restarted this. I’ve been doing it on and off for the last ten years but then I really stopped for the last four or five years. I just, I don’t think I even went down to Skid Row once. Not that it’s all about Skid Row, but I didn’t do this kind of work for the last four or five years. My advertising has changed a lot in the last ten years, right? And I wasn’t enjoying it like I used to. And I just got to a point, like: I don’t love this anymore. I mean my assistant, Axel, who’s been with me for decades, he was saying, “Are we having fun? Because we used to have fun.” Like, we used to have a blast doing advertising. He goes, “We’re not having fun anymore.” And he was exactly right. It just wasn’t fun anymore. We were doing it because we needed to make money. We’d get through the day, and we’re professional, and we’d do a great job. But is it really fun? Are we really proud of what we did? It’s been dumbed down, watered down, diluted in all these different ways. It just wasn’t stimulating and exciting and fun anymore. And he’s right. He’s like, “It hasn’t been fun for years.”
And I wanted to give away all my equipment and just walk away. I swear to God. I just wanted to quit. Just do something else. Find something. Time to reinvent. And I gave up my studio in February, like a year ago. And I didn’t want to take a photo; I didn’t want to anything. I was done. Just done. 100 percent. Never even thought about photography. And I just took a month off and did nothing. Just didn’t do anything. Just screwed off for a month. And I’m building a house so I had a storage unit on La Brea [Blvd.]; I had another storage unit in Santa Monica; I had another storage unit in Culver City. I had, I think, four different storage units around the city with all my furniture and prints and studio stuff. I had all my stuff stored in all these different units. I did the math and figured out how much I was spending on storage units while this house was being constructed. And I realized: Shit, I bet you I could get a place on Skid Row. One space where I could store everything in the back, and in the front I could have a studio! And the next day I went down there and found a place and signed a lease and that’s what I’m doing. And it work out great! So everything’s there in the back and in the front I have the space to shoot in, and it’s been the best thing I ever did. I’m having more fun now than I ever did in my entire career. Yeah. I’m more excited about going down there or going on a trip to go somewhere and create more content, than anything I’ve ever done. It’s been so exciting and fun and so challenging. It’s difficult. But…I’ve never felt more alive than since I’ve been doing this.
JL: You’ve tapped into something. But I think the greatest gift is giving these people some semblance of dignity back.
ML: [I’ve talked with] a lot of drug addicts on Skid Row, and I’ve had four people-Christie was the one I mentioned earlier-but before her I had three other people who came to me and said, “You know since I did that little interview with you? I haven’t used my drug once.”
JL: That’s powerful.
ML: Yeah. Not that I’m a healer. I’m not. All I’m doing is giving them a way to unload their garbage that they’re holding inside. That’s all I’m doing. There’s no magic here. If you hold onto that kind of pain it has power over you. Whereas if you release it, like Christie did with her daughter, and then she watched the video over and over again. It eventually loosens up that weight and all of a sudden you’re able to make decisions better. And then you can do the right thing rather than keep repeating the wrong thing.
JL: It is such a simple thing that you do. I mean it is complex in the setup in terms of the equipment-
ML: Yeah but it’s stripped down. A person talking. Tell me your life story. That’s it.
Listen to the full episodes below.
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Click here for more information on Soft White Underbelly, or see it on YouTube.
See more of Mark Laita’s work on Workbook.
Mark Laita is repped by Heather Elder Represents.
