We’re back at the Palm Springs Photo Festival with Heidi Goverman, Workbook Regional Representative. On this episode, Heidi talks to senior art producer Brian Gibson, art producer Jen Lamping, creative producer Ron Beinner, and visual lead Anna Dickson, about social media from personality to metrics.
HG: “So onto social media. I want to ask Anna: what is best to see? What do you want to see on a photographer’s social media: Instagram, Facebook, Linkedin?”
AG: “Yes, I think it’s a hard question because I don’t think there’s one answer. I think it depends on what you shoot and what your audience does. Like, what they’re into and how you engage with your audience. So I don’t believe, you know I talk to photographers all the time who say, ‘Ah, I just blasted out [a post] to all of these places,’ and I don’t think that’s the way to use social media. Social has different people interacting with them in different ways. Just because you post something on…”
HG: “It’s social.”
AG: “It’s social, right, and there are different audiences in different places. And your audience is always going to be different. It also depends on who you’re gearing it for and what your goals are. I think there’s no really good answer to that. I mean, I don’t know about you [other panelists], I never looked at Linkedin to find out about a photographer ever. (Ron and Jen agree)
“That is also why, when people add me [on Linkedin], that is for my business. And I realize my business is sort of photography. But there’s like…you’re not putting photos on your Linkedin account, and I’m not going to read through your Linkedin profile and read about what you [do], I just want to go to your website! So I don’t use it for that.
“I spend a lot of time on Instagram. I, like I said, use my Facebook for more of my own personal social life. But I also know that I’ve talked to several photographers who have built huge followings on Facebook because they’re selling filter presets and stuff like that, and the audience they’re going for is on Facebook, and that’s a great group to engage with on Facebook.
“So I think it’s partially about just figuring out your style of photography and/or video, or whatever it is that you’re shooting, and figuring out where your work resonates best. Really focus on that rather than try to spread it all over the place and just hope for someone to notice in one of those several places.”
HG: “Brian, the next question [is for you]. What would attract you to ‘follow’ and artist on any of those [social sites]? How do they get your attention on social media?”
BG: “Gosh, that’s a tricky one. For me, if I were looking at social for a photographer, it would be for something specific. I wouldn’t necessarily go to Instagram to find photographers initially for a project. That’s just me. It’s, I think to [Anna’s] point, it would be where I would go to dig deeper about someone.”
HG: “So, sort of to the next point, how does their social media come to your attention? Do they email you when you click on their social media and follow them if you like [it] and that’s how you get there? Or, you’re looking at a photographer’s site?”
BG: “If you’re looking at their site or their website and then you want to know more about them, [you] look at their social. And I think it’s kind of a tricky thing with social when you’re a photographer because something like Instagram, which is so image driven, do you want it to be all your work or do you want it to tell a little bit about you as a person? Or do you save that for your website ‘about page,’ you know? I think everyone approaches it differently: whether they want it to be purely for business or also to share a little bit about themselves personally.”
HG: “Ron, do you agree with that?”
RB: “I do, and I find the most successful… like, if I’m searching for a photographer, it’s tough to do that with Instagram. It’s too wide. You don’t really know how to find them necessarily. But I do think Instagram’s useful for maintaining a relationship and tracking someone and seeing what they’re up to. I follow Pari Dukovic on Instagram, and I rarely look at his website, actually. (Brian agrees.) But I notice that he did this new campaign, and it popped up on Instagram. So it’s a great marketing tool for him.
“And all of that is in sync with his agent’s website because they’ve uploaded it, too. He’s also [updating social] before you get to your website itself. Maybe you update that every 3 or 6 months. But your Instagram can be immediate. So I like that. Do you have something about using it for personal? Because I do think it’s nice sometimes to see. There are some photographers who are extremely successful with blending their work with their personal life. It’s very attractive.”
HG: “Yes, I think that’s sort of the first question in that: is there a recipe in your head [in posting on social]? Like, BTS and you know, not their lunch but found things, things that are out and about where they find stuff and also some of their assignment work? A mix of all of those things?”
RB: “Yes, and who they’re hanging out with. Maybe some BTS and maybe…you know, some [photographers] are very good at presenting a certain sense of their work and maybe they’re a bigger-than-life character and maybe they’re hanging out with really interesting people. Or maybe they’re photojournalists and they are somewhere very unusual. I just find it all very engaging when it’s done right.”
JL: “And if I could just [chime in]. I would agree. I feel like for a long time, [buyers] never really looked at Instagram to find photographers. But, I tell you this social world…some of our social clients, they don’t want established photographers; they want us to find them off of Instagram and they may or may not have a website. That’s how crazy it’s gotten sometimes.”
BG: “It’s a very grey area. You don’t even know where or how to place them with fees and money it’s just-“
HG: “So in the minute when that happens, you’re going to Instagram and you’re [searching] randomly, ‘I need hamburgers?’ So are you going to Instagram and putting [that word] into the hashtag universe and see whatever comes up?”
JL:” Yeah, hashtags.”
HG: “Because a lot of people are going to come up.-“
JL: “I know.-“
HG: “Like, my grandma might come up.”
JL:” I know. But I think some of the clients want some of this real, more natural, quicker, faster, cheaper. They want some of that to live in their social. They don’t want it to be too polished. They don’t want it to be produced. And it’s kind of sometimes a needle in a haystack. Sometimes they want photographers that haven’t even shot [what the clients] do because they want a fresh eye on it; they want it to look different. It’s very hard now to figure out what the clients want sometimes because it’s all over the place. Sometimes there are suggestions on Instagram, so you kind of can go down a rabbit hole.”
HG: “No I can only imagine. You put in a hashtag like that you’re there 2 days later.”
JL: “Yeah.” [laughing]
AD: “I get feedback from some of the teams that I work with. And I’ve tried to break it down into data and ask them upfront, ‘Here’s a quality threshold; where do you land on this scale?’ But we’ve had some UX studies done where the reality is that some people in some products, not all products because I do think just like your clients and the products that we work with and the brands that everybody works with and represents, that they each have a brand voice. And there are now some places where people don’t trust really highly produced content and actually trust something that’s a little more Instagram-y and in that world.”
JL: “If I can just add to that…this just blows my mind. It’s like, ‘how many followers do they have,’ that a was big thing. Now there are, there’s software to figure out the metrics of who their followers are and the demographics of their followers…if it’s the same demographics of the type of people who we’re targeting for our brand. It gets down to where sometimes it’s not even about the work for social! Which, it’s a little crazy sometimes…”
AD: “Yeah.”
BG: “Yeah.”
AD:” I mean I think with social, the tricky thing is a lot of the time brands are hiring for the imagery. They are hiring for the [social] following. And it is brand marketing. It’s all about: ‘ my brand resonates with women between the ages of 21 and 34 who live in this area, and they also like Target, and these are the women under this following that also follow Target. So we’re going to use this person.’ A lot of that that exists out there, and it is not about the industry at all whatsoever.”
JL: “Yeah, it’s crazy.”
RB: “Interesting.”
HG: “Metric gymnastics, really.”
JL:” Yes, especially if you are aesthetically driven. It’s hard to shift this way. [Because as a buyer you’re thinking] I would never recommend that person because they they don’t have a car [shot] and we’re shooting a car! So sometimes it’s just very bizarre.”
AD: “But I think that one of the things that I, when I talk to photographers and when I try and do talks, is [I] do think this information is stuff people don’t know. I think if we can educate ourselves as creators to learn about those worlds and understand how to leverage those types of things and say,’Okay. So I need to, again back to [earlier panel topics], maybe my stuff does fall under this realm, and I should focus on Instagram, and I should actually work to grow a following (which I know is not easy to do) but work in this realm because I’ll get these brands.’ It’s just that the model has changed, and our model hasn’t always changed. So, we have to change our model to fit a little bit more into this new world.”
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