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Workbook Radio Episode 20 – Daniel Bedell with Tropico Photo, Part 2

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On this episode of Workbook Radio, podcast/photographer Daniel Bedell continues his interview with Tropico Photo.  This episode discusses how roles are doled out as a duo and if gender plays part in how they do business.

DB: “So explain to me how your roles work on set and in the business?”

MN: “I think we’re definitely more in the area of now Forrest handles more of the technical parts. We concept together most of the time, and then Forrest kind of handles more of the technical aspects and the lighting and just running all those parts of the shoot, and actually Forrest is usually the literal shooter. And then I definitely do a lot more of styling and art direction. On set I would say that I talk and interact with the clients a lot more. What do you think?”

FA: “Yeah. I’d say it’s probably more on your side. Just from the art direction standpoint, like that’s what it boils down to a lot with the client, is discussing the art.”

MN: “Yeah.”

FA: “So you don’t typically discuss the actual photography as much once you get down to the shoot. But we usually shoot to computer, so even if I’m firing the camera, Michelle is responding and reacting to the photos, and we’re discussing those on the fly and figuring out how to dial in the look. So it’s definitely a very modern type of photography.”

MN: “Yes, but I do feel it’s very, it’s more typical in the teams that I’ve heard about. Usually the woman does more of the art direction/styling side. Isn’t that funny?”

FA: “It seems like gender stereotyping for sure…guys are more technical, and girls are more emotive and artistic, or something.”

(They laugh.)

DB: “I was curious about that a little bit. Does [gender] ever come up in shoots where there was an expectation and maybe you feel this vibe that the people who hired you thought, ‘Oh, we were going to be working with a woman. That’s kind of why we did this.’ Or maybe like a certain person only kind of wants to talk to you because you’re a guy. I’m just wondering if there’s ever that [element] trying to figure out where the client is coming from and what they wanted in hiring you?”

MN: “I think the dynamic shifts depending on who the clients are. I definitely feel like we’ve discussed this duality of having a male and a female on the team and how that plays into interacting with clients, especially when it comes to rates. Which sounds so strange, but when I was dealing with talking rates before we were a team and then now…it’s like kind of a weird thing to say, but I think the level of respect and seriousness that’s given when I feel like a man is doing more of the negotiating is kind of shocking, versus, like I do think women are undervalued a lot, and it’s hard for them to get the rates they deserve. That’s one area where we sort of see that come into play. And then when we’re actually on set with clients and interacting with them, I do think, off the bat, it’s pretty easy to tell who they jive more with and whether it’s because they came into the experience hoping to work with a man or hoping to work with a woman; I think that comes across.

“I would say more of our female clients defer to me in a lot of ways, and Forrest ends up being a bit more peripheral, or like a lot of male clients kind of talk shop more with Forrest. Another reason when we did join up together was because when we were pitching ourselves as a team we didn’t want to be picked apart in the a la carte way. Like, “Oh you know what I don’t really need much art direction/ styling on this one, or I don’t care if the lighting is whatever.” Basically making it so that even if they were more into working with a woman or were more into working with a man, the skills that come with that; this is one package, and it’s not like you get to pick and choose is what’s going to be the production. So I think that was a big thing because we did feel people sort of wanting to pick and choose what they were going to use.”

FA: “Yes. At this point we’re definitely describing ourselves and pitching ourselves as a creative team that dives into production, art production, and we’re not strictly photography.”

MN: “But it is interesting to think I’m not sure what people are expecting before they come on set about who they’re going to talk more with.”

FA: “Yeah. I would say that Michelle is a little bit more extroverted than I am, so I feel like it’s pretty natural that she does a little bit more of the-”

MN: “Shmoozing?”

FA: “Client engagement, which I appreciate because I can be very perfectionist and OCD, and I like to have my space to focus on the art and the technical side, and I can get distracted easily. So I feel like we just work to each other’s strengths, and it’s great we are two of us because sometimes one of us is really busy, so the other person is there to engage; there’s always somebody who’s front facing with the client.”

DB: “Michelle, were you surprised there was that big a gap in compensation or seriousness? Because you can only live in your own skin and know, and as a white male sometimes I wonder, ‘Hey, if people are looking much more for women and women of color and a lot of the people hiring me are women,’ and so I would think even a woman would have a leg up. But you’re saying no?”

MN: “Well I think I was surprised because I had the same point of view, surely at this point women are…I wouldn’t say more valuable, but kind of similarly to what you’re saying, valued a lot and sought out in a lot of ways. But I think one thing that comes with that and needs to follow now is wanting to compensate women for the value that they’re being seen for.  Because I think while it is sought after, and it’s definitely things are changing, I think women are still just inherently offered less money.

“Or on the other side, that women feel like they have a harder time asking for as much. So I think it’s probably on both sides because there were times, in the beginning, especially when we were moving in to ad work, that I would be like, ‘Oh my god, we can’t ask for that much money. That’s crazy.’ I think it’s just built in, this imposter syndrome with women, where you’re [thinking] there’s no way that I or my work can be worth that much money. And it’s not to dog on themselves, because I feel like my work is good. I feel it’s valuable. And of course, I’m making a bunch of generalizations, but I think in general men feel they have a lot of value, and if they’re good at something then it’s worth—”

FA: “They’re used to getting what their perceived value is.”

MN: “Yes. And I think it was interesting seeing how negotiations went differently when suddenly there was a man involved, because instead of coming off rude-pushy, just sounded confident. And I think there’s a lot of struggling with that for women in business…trying to sound sweet or unassuming, which is this layer that is completely stripped away with [men]. I feel men are completely upfront in business and feel they can be clear about what they deserve and not sound like they are being unfair. Yeah, I don’t know; it’s strange.”

FA: “Yes. I mean, I definitely think that is a thing. But I also think having Michelle in the partnership, that she seeks out women, tries to hire other women. Talking about as part of the dynamic, we’ve shot a couple of times for an entirely female-produced magazine that’s all about women and female empowerment. And there’s a photo that we took of Michelle that’s on the cover of Bitch Magazine, which is also a modern feminist editorial, so I feel some of what we’re approached for is Michelle and what she brings to the table. I mean, she is incredible; she dresses really awesomely; that’s a big part of her own personal identity, and she’s super hip and has tattoos, and (Michelle laughing) she’s just really cool.  So I feel like some people approach us who I don’t think would have approached me because Michelle is really appealing.”

MN: “I think the feminine aspect is definitely important and sought after. I just think rates and value should catch up to the actual value of women’s work.”

FA: “Oh yeah. Absolutely. And we’re a one-on-one partnership, so we split everything, which I feel like is great because it helps us feel equal.”

MN: “Yeah.”

Listen to the full episode below.

See more of Tropico Photo here.

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